that is our show. see you next week. ♪ think if you have insurance from your work obama care won't hit you? well, why wouldn't you? >> if your employer provides you health insurance on the job, nobody is talking about messing with that. >> so no problem for workers getting coverage from employers, right? wrong. fox confirming a report revealing the law actually expects 66% of small business plans and 45% of large company plans to get hit by obama care. that could mean up to 93 million americans may get cancellation letters. are you one of them? hi, everyone. i'm brenda buttner. this is "bulls and bears." let's get right to it. here they are. the bulls and bears this week, we have gary b. smith, tracy

byrnes, jonas max ferris, john layfield and bernard whitman. welcome to everybody. gary b., another broken promise? >> absolutely, brenda. the only word i can think of that describes this is despicable. one, you know, as you pointed out right at the top, it's not going to, you know, five million, 10 million people. the number as you pointed out is over 90 million people. that's over a quarter of the population that were, one, lied to. and, two, now forced to go onto plans that are invariably costing more than they are paying for now. so this whole thing about you can keep your plan, and even if you have to kick your plan and search for a better one,it turns out, brenda, it's lie upon lie upon lie. and not only that. maybe the worst part, the reason i say it's despicable, they knew all this before -- well before obama care was implemented. >> bernard, what do you think of

that? >> i think it's hysteria gone wild. if 93 million people were about to lose their health insurance in the next two months because of the year end, i think we'd know about it by now. i don't buy this at all. the cost of premiums was rising so dramatically from 11% to 24%. we are finally bending the cost cutters here. and we have seen this year costs for health care going up by the least amount in 50 years. i know as a small business owner, i get my plan dropped all the time. three times out of the last five years when i have go to re-up my plan, it's not been available. i've had to change it an unfortunately to a plan with lower benefits and higher premiums. this is finally going to change this. >> john, is it going to make it better as bernard says? >> no. it's not going to make it better. this fallacy -- and it is another fallacy. have you to understand these guys have spun this magnifint tale. we have been sold a bill of

goods. they talk about premiums coming down. they started coming down in '09, before obama care ever kicked in. it has to do with the recession. studies have shown that over 80% of it has to do with the recession, not with anything to do with obama care. but yet they tout these numbers, as politicians do. they have said that no one will have to lose their policy. that's not true. nancy pelosi says policies will not go up. that's not true. mike enzi, republican from wyoming, tried to pass a bill because he knew the health care -- small businesses would lose their health care plan. he wanted those grandfathered in. democratvoted this down. they knew this was coming. they have completely sold us an absolute bill of goods here. >> tracy, shouldn't you be worried if you have an employer plan? >> i think everyone should be worried. gary b., i have a better word for you. i think it's deceitful, because they knew back in 2009 that there were going to be people that were turned down. they knew a lot of people would be turned down. and they also knew that people would be forced to costlier

plans that didn't provide as good of benefits as they currently have because god forbid everybody is not on an equal playing field. so i think they knew this was going to happen, and we were just slowly learning more and more well what they knew, and now the public is starting to get a sense of it. >> jonas, you actually think it's good for some, bad for others. >> yeah. look, it's a program with winners and losers. if you're in the top half of the healthiest americans, the top half by income, you probably are going to take some hits here, whether you're going to get a plan that's more costly or more benefits than you want. if you're in the bottom half, bottom half by health, you'll get a cheaper, better plan. you're going to get a plan in many cases that's better. and you may have to pay for it. you may pay more or less. it depends. but you're going to get plans that meet these higher standards. the take away here is they want everybody to have a certain high level plan. it's the opposite of what bush wanted to do when he wanted a high plan when you paid more out-of-pocket. this you'll pay less

out-of-pocket and have more coverage. this doesn't benefit everybody, though. >> gary, have you heard from bernard and jonas that say it may not be as bad as we think. how bad do you think it's going to get? >> the numbers show it. look, if this was great, if i personally -- you know, when i did my own insurance if i thought this was so great, i'd be running to these exchanges. have i gone to the exchange. i have gone to my blue cross, blue shield. and i can't find a better plan at the same price. in fact, what i'm finding is worse plans because they tack on this crap like maternity care and substance abuse which i don't need for a higher premium, for crying out loud. it's absolutely ridiculous. this is forced upon us. bernard said it. i know bernard is a nice guy. but he comes up with this like bend the cost curve. do you know where the cost curve is being bent? right around our necks. >> better than our wallet. >> it is hitting our wallet, though, isn't it? >> no. i think honestly, look at new

york state. people in new york state on the exchanges will pay up to half of what they pay elsewhere. and you know who's really at fault here? republican governors who refused to launch exchanges on their own and abdicated the responsibility to the federal government. >> i think it's unfair to force people onto plans they want. i don't want maternity care anymore. i'm done. there's no reason to pay for that. we are being forced just to even the cost structure to pay more so that people who didn't have it in the beginning will have something. that's where it becomes unfair. >> john, it would be one thing if we were being forced into more affordable, better care, more useful plans. but that's not the case, is it? >> no. it's not the case. how many stats can you cherry pick from the side that's arguing for obama care? everybody quotes new york state because of their health care system. it is the only one that's going down.

there's about 49 states that are going up. california is triple digit increase right now. i mean, these guys cherry pick every stat they have. they say they don't even know the numbers from the website. you can go on google analytics. it doesn't cost hundreds of millions of dollars. you can find out almost anything you want about any website except for this government website. i keep saying this. they have sold us a bill of goods. they have flat lied to the american people. and the people that are getting cheaper insurance, it's because of subsidies. somebody is paying for that. it's not free pizza, guys. somebody is paying for this. >> the other insured people are paying for it. and that's how it works. but isn't that better than the alternative, which would be nobody pays for it but the very high taxpayers? because that's how most health care is covered in america. the people that pay for everybody else, and nobody sees a premium increase. that's how medicare and medicaid is paid for. isn't it fairer where at least half of the country might see

higher premiums to pay for the other half? >> what's fair about that? everyone is priced out of them. they are only basically available to a handful of people. there's nothing fair about the way the cost structure is. not to -- and to add insult to injury, the care is not going to be there for you. >> and the fact is, we have been paying and subsidizing to pay for people who do not have health insurance for years. they go to emergency rooms, and we are stuck with a very high inefficient bill. it's time to level the playing field and reduce costs in that manner. >> but here's the problem. we'll wind up with more uninsured now as people get dumped from their plans. so we have not even solved the core problem that obama care was supposed to solve. >> that has to be the last word. all right. sticker shock from obama care isn't just sticking it to folks shopping for health care. it could be the grinch that killed the entire holiday shopping season. neil's gang trying to rescue christmas at the bottom of the hour. but up here first, a black

box can track and tax every mile you drive. this one may drive you mad. =yedudtdyj website at fox

news.com. track and tax. it started in oregon. and now other states are looking to put black boxes in cars to tax every mile you drive. the states want to raise more money for road and bridge repairs. but, john, you say it's raising

a big privacy issue. >> yeah. see if angela merkel wants to come over here and get in a car with a black box right now. the nsa is spying on europeans to americans, reading our emails. you really want a black box in my chevy truck down in east texas? i don't think i want to do that. the problem is the gas tax hasn't been raised in two decades, and we need that to fund roads and bridges. look, this rewards cars that are fuel efficient and punishes those that are not. a black box that would do something similar would be so complex because you would have to deal with the weight and model of the car. this is an unbelievable complex mechanism, much less to say a privacy concern. >> believe it or not, jonas does not have a chevy truck, but he does have a scooter, and that has something to do with your argument. >> first of all, if you think the government can't track you down without a black box in your car, you don't even know. but i like the gas tax. this makes sense and forget the

privacy concerns for a second. there are people in teslas who already got a tax break to buy this expensive car who are not paying any dpas tax and never will. and they are consuming the roads. i am consuming gas in my vespa and paying more than the tesla. this is the only way to make them pay their share. anytime people pay for their own use of government resources, i am for it. >> tracy, we already pay taxes and tolls. and those get misused. >> that's the problem. brenda, i am the first person who, you know, you should put a black box in my car, i drive so much. you could solve all the government's woes in like a week. >> don't volunteer. >> of commuting for me between work and the kids. but the problem is we have a gas tax that's already misspent. it's supposed to be used to fix the roads. where is it? who the heck knows? it's just like every other

dollars that go into the government coffers. it gets lost in a black hole. if i knew the tax was being used appropriately, i would say raise it, go ahead. i can't stand the bumps and the potholes in the roads that bust my tires every third day, but it's not being used that way. >> bernard, you're not volunteering i take it. but you don't like this idea? >> i think it's a terrible idea. but what i like is beautiful tracy's spin. >> oh. >> the reason why we need more money is the money is going down because we have to spend less money on gas because the cars are more fuel efficient. and by the way, this didn't happen by accident. president obama negotiated a deal with automakers that will save consumers $69 billion by 2020. it's going to cut fuel consumption or cut four million barrels a day from american oil consumption. and the fact is, we should be able to spend about the same amount on the gas tax as we have over time that we use it. and people are going to have to -- >> this is apparently the

bernard spin. that's a good bernard spin for you. >> well, that should be fighting words for you, tracy. how do you respond? >> bernard, you have to be kidding me with this. the notion that you think this money is going to bring gas prices down, are you -- come on now. nothing is bringing anything down, bernard. everything is going up. >> we're spending less money at the pump because we're not just putting as much fuel in our car. >> are you driving? >> i am. >> the only reason gas prices are going down is because of global supply and demand. it has nothing to do with the gas tax collected. >> gary b., get back to the topic here about this black box thing. >> bernard started out with beautiful tracy. if you just stopped there, it would have been perfect. then he added the spin part. >> that's true. >> and that was -- look, anything that's -- any oneof these things that's kept in the state's hands versus the federal government's hands, i vote for. once you -- tracy is correct. only about 60%, in fact, of the

highway trust fund is actually spent on bridges and roads. the rest is spent on silly stuff like maps, metro, and bike paths and other stuff. or it's spent inefficiently. anyone that lives in the boston area still has nightmares of the big dig. or what about the bridge to nowhere? so when you put in the federal government's hands, you might as well just flush about 50% of it down the toilet. i'm not in favor of any black box in any car. but at least if the states have control of it, the money will be spent a little bit better. >> that's got to be the last word. all right. it's not just the white house telling you what to feed your kids. now one parent is said to be telling some of her neighbors, keep your chubby children away from their halloween candy. is the nanny state creating nanny neighbors? >> hey, that's my candy! that's my candy!

from d.c. to the dakotas, parents being told how to raise their kids. the white house bringing in elmo and rosita this week to tell them what foods to eat. and some kids in fargo, north dakota, finding a trick in their bag of treats. a woman there reportedly giving trick or treaters who she thought were fat a letter telling their parents to scrap sugary snacks. tracy, now we have nanny neighbors? >> this is crazy. first of all, let's be clear.

halloween is not the reason for childhood obesity. let's just get that out of the picture right now. the fact that these kids have candy once a year is not our problem. but the fact that we have people who try to tell us how to raise our children, that is inherently the problem here. people seem to think they can stick their nose in your business, including uncle sam. >> jonas, you say there should be some public embarrassment for raising your kids the wrong way. >> well, certainly, walking is good for your health. so dispel that, compelled to easter where -- anyway, whatever. and thanksgiving, forget it. that's your fat holiday. this letter shouldn't have to come from your neighbor. and that poor house will get so pummelled in toilet paper. it should come from obama care because everyone has all of this health care, it's an incentive to eat more because now you have health insurance. there should be incentives to be thin in america by your health

insurance company. that's what we need. >> forget the nanny state. this is the mommy and daddy state, isn't it? >> well, it is. but this isn't bother me that much. i mean, it bothers me. but we've had this forever. we've had nosy neighbors. >> that's because you're skinny. >> no, no, no. >> you were never a fat kid. >> well, i was a little chubby to be honest with you. but, no, we've had nosy neighbors. annoying neighbors. intrusive p.t.a. you know, we've had, you know, just a ton of people like this forever. that doesn't bother me. just don't go to that house next year. what bothers me is when the government does this. it's the same thing with obama care. they say we've decided we know better than you. that to me is intrusive. the whole michelle obama thing, she can spout off whatever she wants. but when she gets to the point where she's drawing up school menus, that annoys me. >> bernard, you think the government has some role in what kids eat. >> it does. and gary b. is completely wrong on this point.

why? because childhood obesity rates over 30 years quadruple, went from 5% to 20%. this year is the first time in american history that childhood obesity are going down, and that's a good thing. because obese iterates are linked to higher rates of stroke, heart disease, cancer. fat kids are going to have a really tough road. and the fact that the government is educating parents, making fruits and vegetables, reducing the sugar content in school lunches is critically important to getting control of our health and reducing the cost of health care. frankly, obama care with preventative care will help that. >> i have to get john in here. do you think government should have a role in our refrigerators, which is basically what we're talking about? >> good lord, no. government is not educating anything. look at our education system. we keep going down in the rankings. as the only person on this panel that weighing over 250 pounds, if you send me a letter for eating a chocolate bunny on easter, we're going to have a fight. we have lazy kids in this country.

they need a boot on their hind quarters to get them out and play in the yard. they don't need notes on halloween. that's ridiculous. >> this lady as far as i'm concerned should be addressed as a bully because that's what she was. thanks, guys. and thanks to bernard whitman for joining us. >> thank you for having me. they may be dead, but that's not stopping themrom making a killing off of your money. find out how. and the one sock that has jonas' dog wagging its tail. how can you not stick aroundor ramon? ñ@ç@çpçpçpç÷ñoxmhmhyhy

see these hands? they gripped the wheel of a humvee in afghanistan. these hands? six years treating soldiers.

twelve years, flying choppers. my hands? they're here for the person who fought in afghanistan. i made the call and got support for my sister. my hands are here for the person who treated those soldiers. i helped connect my son with the care he's earned. mine take care of the person who flew those helicopters. and if life gets overwhelming they're ready to dial the veterans crisis line. the veterans crisis line is here for all veterans and their loved ones. call 1-800-273-8255 and press 1. or chat online at veteranscrisisline.net

predictions. gary b.? >> i just discovered spirit airlines for holiday travel. i would buy the stock. i love it. save. i think it's up 40% in a year. >> jonas? >> well, the seats don't even recline. that is just people express with another name. >> john, your prediction? >> the e-cig business is getting into by the old cigarette makers. philip morris. >> bull or bear? >> i like the stock. i would wait for it to pull back, though. >> tracy? >> we just found out that medicare paid out $23 million to dead people. and another $29 million to illegal immigrants. what the heck? when are we going to talk about entitlement reform? >> yes. nobody's a bear on that. jonas? >> we just found out this week that dogs when they wag their tail to the right it means they are happy. the left, they're nervous. the more we learn about dogs

that makes them happy, the more we'll spend on these little guys to make them happy. dcm up 20%. >> john, how can you be a bull? ramon, we love you! the health care grinch about to steal christmas? it is enough to make holiday shoppers sick. the health care sticker price. after all, if you are doling out more for health care because of the new law, something tells me you do not dole out as much on those hickory farms holiday baskets i love next time you're at the mall. so stick a syringe in that tea plug. it looks like the ho-hum holiday might already be processed in. processed in. ok. >> i got it. i got it. >> this is like an introductory course. we